Tim Leunig is the brains behind some of the biggest education policies of the past decade. He also came up with the furlough scheme, which helped to stop thousands of businesses collapsing during Covid. We meet at Westminster Abbey, where Leunig arrives in a high-vis vest (although he didn鈥檛 cycle here). It fits his reputation as the archetypal 鈥渨eirdo and misfit鈥 that Dominic Cummings, the government鈥檚 former chief adviser, said Westminster needed more of. The setting enables Leunig to indulge his love of history and politics as we tour memorials to the people who created ripples on the tide of British history, before turning to the ripples of Leunig鈥檚 own making. The weirdo and misfits Dominic Cummings In 12 years as a civil servant, Leunig advised Number 10, the Treasury and Department for Education, among others. He is a close ally of Michael Gove, Nick Gibb and Cummings. Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats, is an 鈥渙ld friend鈥 and neighbour. He agrees with Cummings鈥 infamous remark about . 鈥淲e need more people willing to tell us how it is.鈥 Also, like Cummings, he is not afraid to . He railed against the regeneration of northern cities more than 15 years ago, saying the North is 鈥渓ess desirable鈥 for business and calling for more housebuilding instead down South. Four years ago, he created a storm by suggesting the . He tells me that any teacher who does not believe in the phonics approach is 鈥渘ot a professional, any more than a doctor who says don’t believe in antibiotics, or that smoking doesn鈥檛 kill you鈥. Leunig says he will 鈥渢ell you what I think is true, and I will change my mind when my understanding of the facts changes鈥. He says working on the furlough scheme while economic adviser at the Treasury was 鈥渢he greatest privilege of my life鈥. He took the idea from a scheme in Germany to protect workers when certain industries face problems. He is adamant that UK unemployment would have hit four million without it. He left the Treasury as ministers slashed the civil servant headcount in 2022. Cummings said his departure was 鈥渁nother sign this Downing Street is pointless鈥, praising Leunig鈥檚 鈥渉onest advice without any of normal courtier dynamics so ubiquitous and poisonous鈥 in Westminster. Leunig took up a few short-term advisory roles across other departments, including the DfE last year, then after joining consultancy Public First as a director in May he spent September and October as the prime minister鈥檚 education adviser. He recently started as the Onward think-tank鈥檚 chief economist. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak at the Conservative Party conference where he unveiled proposals for ABS qualifications 鈥楥onquering maths鈥 While he has many policy legacies, the most immediate is the controversial Advanced British Standard (ABS). 聽(Incidentally, Leunig reveals Gibb wanted to call the qualification ACE 鈥 the Advanced Certificate in Education). Under the Baccalaureate-style qualification, students will study at least five subjects at either 鈥渕ajor鈥 or 鈥渕inor鈥 levels, including maths and English. But, given the current government is likely to be on its way out, and there are much more pressing issues than qualification reform, why now? 鈥淲hy not now?鈥 he says. 鈥淵ou have to start somewhere, sometime.鈥 He believes maths will be essential in the future AI economy as it teaches a 鈥渨ay of thinking that is structured and not intuitive鈥. 鈥淢aths is hard. When you鈥檝e conquered maths, you鈥檝e gained a skill and a sense of logic that lasts you a lifetime.鈥 He thinks too many people are having to retake the subject after they leave school, and backs Labour鈥檚 plan to focus on maths in primary schools. But how to recruit the teachers? Essentially, pay them more and 鈥渙ut compete other employers鈥. The problem is that England has 鈥渓ots of careers鈥 for maths graduates, unlike Finland, for instance. 鈥淥f course they want to be teachers 鈥 what else can you do there?鈥 He says there was 鈥渧irtually nothing鈥 in terms of maths policy proposals that he did not 鈥減ut a big smiley face and a double tick on鈥 when they came across his desk. Although he left Oxford University in 1996 with a PhD and multiple accolades under his belt, he was not a standout maths student at school. He got a C in his further maths A-level at Sir Joseph Williamson鈥檚 Mathematical School, a boy鈥檚 grammar school in Rochester. Leunig had a relatively modest upbringing in Kent. His father left soon after he started primary school, his mother did shop work. His 鈥渞ather posh鈥 accent comes from being taught to overpronounce syllables to cure a speech impediment. 鈥楾he aim of good government is social mobility鈥 Tim Leunig as a school boy Leunig鈥檚 time at the DfE ran from 2012, as then-schools minister David Law鈥檚 adviser, to 2017, as the department鈥檚 chief scientific adviser. He waxes lyrical about Gove, who introduced the pupil premium 鈥 despite it uplifting funding for 鈥渒ids from families who disproportionately vote Labour鈥. He fondly recalls Gove writing on his office whiteboard 鈥渢he aim of any good government is social mobility鈥, something that Leunig believes passionately in. Leunig devised the national funding formula in 2014 (although it took another four years to get 鈥減olitical buy-in鈥). His belief in fair funding stems from his own schooling. He recalls how books 鈥 which said 鈥淜ent County Council鈥 on the back 鈥 鈥渦sed to run out every year. The school would ring the council and beg for more exercise books. It didn鈥檛 have a budget to buy books itself.鈥 While academisation gave schools that financial control, the 鈥渦nfairness was [still] baked in鈥. Leunig says the new formula 鈥 which has still to be rolled out fully 鈥 will mean it is 鈥渘o longer possible for a school to claim that an individual child would be better funded at another school, or that funding is the reason that the child is doing badly in their school鈥. He is 鈥減rofoundly proud鈥 of replacing the 鈥渦tterly pernicious鈥 system of five A to C GCSEs, which Leunig believes incentivised schools to try to game the system, with the progress 8 accountability measure. While some schools have narrowed the number of subjects taken since, he puts this down to making GSCEs 鈥渂roader and more substantive鈥. Leunig鈥檚 own school exam results included a B at history A-level. He says he was 鈥渦nlucky鈥 but, like history exams, Ofsted inspections are 鈥渧alid but not reliable鈥. He highlights how having three of your best teachers ill when inspectors visit could substantially change the outcome. 鈥淥fsted is supposed to be a value judgment, but that comes at the expense of reliability. So, the question is, what do you do with that judgment?鈥 Leunig adds, though, that he has 鈥渁 lot of time and sympathy鈥 for former Ofsted chief inspector Amanda Spielman, who he has known for 20 years. Tim Leunig 鈥楥losing schools next big challenge鈥 His biggest regret is not rolling out a randomised control trial before introducing virtual school heads in 2014 to oversee the education of looked-after children in local authorities. These children are 鈥渟o vulnerable that we really need to know鈥 if virtual heads work. 鈥淭hey are probably a very good idea. But [without a randomised control trial] it鈥檚 really hard to work [that] out. Which means you are vulnerable to the next minister’s bright idea.鈥 Leunig is also 鈥渟urprised鈥 he was never informed about reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC), especially by local authorities that employ structural engineers. 鈥淗eads at the time complained to me about the building schools for the future programme, which they found very expensive, and PFI schools 鈥 never about RAAC.鈥 He thinks the 鈥渢he biggest challenge facing the next government is going to be closing schools鈥 due to falling birth-rates. 鈥淭hink about all the schools we鈥檝e rebuilt in the last decade that we鈥檙e now going to throw away because the number of kids is going down,鈥 he says. 鈥淚f only 10 years ago we鈥檇 expanded schools with Portacabins, we could now move them to secondary schools as the bulge moves through. Then, when the bulge goes altogether, sell them off or demolish them.鈥 Education secretary Gillian Keegan was derided for saying that pupils prefer portable classrooms amid the RAAC crisis. But Leunig says 鈥渢hey鈥檙e great 鈥 relatively cheap, much more flexible and well insulated鈥. 鈥淲ho cares鈥 that they are relatively unattractive? 鈥淧aint the outsides!鈥 Unsurprisingly, he has got other bold ideas, too. In 2011, he claimed there was 鈥済ood evidence that teaching assistants do not work鈥 because classrooms with TAs 鈥渄o not have better results鈥. While he supports TAs as a way into teaching, he has 鈥渕ore scepticism鈥 about 鈥渁 dinner lady with no qualifications鈥 taking on the role. There is a danger of kids鈥 confidence being impacted by 鈥渘ice lady syndrome鈥. 鈥淭he teacher can avoid [dealing with] a kid because the TA鈥檚 looking after them. They then become isolated from their friends.鈥 Tim Leunig 鈥榃e don’t try enough things鈥 He thinks further financial savings could be made by stopping the 鈥渉uge cross subsidies鈥 some schools make to their sixth forms and suggests ringfencing the budget for 11 to 16-year-olds. 鈥淎 lot of academies now create sixth forms because it impresses parents. It makes it easier to recruit teachers 鈥 but many of them are very small and inefficient.鈥 Leunig, who recalls being in a class of 40 as a pupil at St Michael’s Roman Catholic Primary School in Medway, says there is 鈥減recious little evidence鈥 that class size makes any difference 鈥 鈥渁t least until you get to 12 per class鈥. He also suggests that every head should become a governor at another local school. What about their workload pressures? Heads have 鈥済ot to get better at delegating鈥. One issue heads might all agree with Leunig on is his concern over the deteriorating mental health of teenage girls. The 鈥渟tandard argument鈥 that 鈥渂oys fall out, punch each other, hug and get on with life鈥 while girls are 鈥渃atty and backstabbing鈥 has 鈥渁lways been true, but now social media has taken them to another level鈥. Nonetheless, he does not mind advocating for more screen time for some children 鈥 in the form of full-time online schooling. The approach 鈥渃ould benefit children in rural settings鈥. He adds: 鈥淚f we have people of calibre running online schools, I鈥檓 willing to take a punt on it. My general principle is that we don’t try enough things.鈥